Language experts don’t do their homework either—Hēmi told us.
Reo Māori expert, Hēmi Kelly, talks being a beginner language learner all over again—the joys, the challenges, and the formula for success.
For more from the tāne himself, follow him on @everydaymāori on insta or visit the Everyday Māori website 🤓.
Hēmi Kelly is one of the most loved Māori language teachers in Aotearoa.
His impressive academic CV, excellent podcast, ‘Everyday Māori’, multiple pukapuka including ‘A Māori Word a Day’, and story of learning Māori as a second language, have certainly contributed to his celebrity status, but it’s the way he makes learners feel—welcome, not stupid when we ask “stupid” questions, and a weird mix of nervous because he’s a legend but secure because he’s totally in your corner—that locked it in.
Perhaps one of the reasons he relates so well to his students is because he seems to be a lifelong one himself. Recently, Hēmi and his partner moved to Brazil for a stint (his partner is from there), where he’s embracing beginner life, once again, to learn Brazilian Portuguese.
I’ve been geekily glued to his instagram watching the process and his takeaways have been so fascinating—and at times surprising—I had to ask him for an uiui/interview.
I learned things in this kōrero that will take years off my haerenga/journey to conversational fluency. It’ll do the same for you.
Hēmi with a friend and his partner, Fabio, in São Paulo, Brazil
So Hēmi, what’s the plan? What are your language learning goals while you’re in São Paulo?
Well, six months is the maximum time we're gonna spend here, just because of visa stuff, so initially I thought—I wanna be fluent, right?
Then after four weeks here, I'm thinking that's just not a reality. Reassessing my goals one month in, I'd just love to be basic level conversational.
I'd love to be able to get by comfortably in daily interactions: purchasing things, going to restaurants, and just meeting people.
He looks a little disappointed.
It's quite a punch in the face.
You hear people say, “Yeah, I went and lived in the country and I was fluent in three months,” but now I’m here and I'm like, no way…
My comprehension is getting better, but when you meet a native speaker they just rattle everything off so fast—all I can hear is noise. I really have to say, “Oh, can you slow down?” and not everyone wants to do that.
Things like going to the supermarket can be really hard. You think, ‘Oh crap, I’m gonna have to talk to the cashier and they're gonna ask me a bunch of questions… Oh, screw it! I don't want to go!’ And then I have to be like, ‘No, no, I have to go….’
It’s really humbling. It's a big wake up call for me.
I’m nodding away thinking, ‘I TOTALLY relate to that fear of talking to a native speaker’.
Then I remember Hēmi has been learning Brazilian Portuguese properly for four weeks while I’ve been learning te reo Māori for three years straight plus about five beginner courses sprinkled over ten years before that.
But, like, it’s all relative, nē?
Is it bringing back memories of the learning journey with te reo Māori for you? Did that feel the same?
Oh, gosh! I would have been a teenager when I was at this stage with reo Māori. I don't remember too much of the feelings—the anxiety—that I'm having here.
I remember it being all fun and games because I was at school. After high school, when I was doing my own study, I was hanging out with friends who were all interested in it as well. We were all going to kapa haka and it just felt fun.
For the millionth time I vow that my future children will learn the language early.
Maybe I experienced some of this when I first started going to kura in a full immersion environment and I wasn't really used to it. Yeah, I did feel some of this then.
Do you reckon going through this will change the way you show up as a kaiako/teacher at all?
It has definitely reminded me of how hard it is to learn a second language.
I empathise more now with my students who might be finding just the ‘simplest things’ hard, like pronunciation.
Here, there are sounds that are different to those in English. In class they’re repeated to us over and over again, but every week all of us still have to be corrected.
I would often think, as a teacher doing pronunciation with my students, ‘Gosh! Why don't they get it? Like, we've gone through this…’
Now I understand it more. For them it's a completely new language. They’re new sounds and there's so much information coming in—you’re absorbing some things but other things slip through. You just have to be reminded over and over until eventually, and it might be six months or a year down the track, you get it.
That's one big thing, I can sympathise and empathise more with my students now, not just be a hard ass.
If Hēmi Kelly is a hard ass, I’m Carissa Moore. Heoi anō…
So what does the language learning schedule of a kaiako look like? What’s your formula to success?
I'm going to classes three hours a day, five days a week, so it’s intensive learning and then there’s homework…
As a teacher I’m always saying, “Do this when you go home,” and now I'm the student who's not doing any of it! I get home and think, ‘Oh, I've done three hours, I just wanna relax!’
It’s a good reminder for me as a teacher to keep students accountable because it drives their self directed learning.
I’m doing a responsible nod but secretly thinking, ‘If Hēmi doesn’t do his homework, there’s no way I’m doing mine.’
That’s when he reminds me his environment and schedule are a littttttttle more demanding than my three hours of class a week…
My learning outside class is just osmosis. I'm hearing and reading the language all the time; on the train, in cafes, doing my shopping, so I feel that's enough for me at this point. Sitting down and doing more study would just blow my mind.
Identifying an opportunity to justify my own ‘more minimalist’ approach, I leap for it.
Do you ever think we can overdo it as students? Do so much we end up burning out?
Oh, interesting question… overdoing it. I don't know if you can overdo it, it’s probably the more the better with language.
No dice.
OK, so if we want to progress in a language and we’re not fully immersed in it, we DO actually need to do our homework. Any other specific tips for success?
There is one thing; we go over a lot of material in a three hour class, and I think what I need to do each day is just focus on one structure or idea and practice using that over and over.
Like today, we were learning comparatives. In class I get it, but tomorrow we're gonna move on to a new structure and if I don't put some time in now, I’m gonna forget it.
This afternoon everywhere I go, with everything I see, all the people I talk to, I’m just trying to use that one structure because otherwise it gets a little lost as we move on and on.
If Hēmi Kelly can only properly learn one thing at a time, I can definitely only learn one thing at a time. Honu whenua/Tortoise and hea/hare styles, I already know this approach would speed up my learning journey.
Also, I’m at that point where I can understand more than I can speak—that’s what happens with language.
I CAN speak, I just need time to formulate the sentences but I don’t really get that opportunity throughout the day. People don't have time to stop and listen to me trying to put a sentence together and that's where the anxiety comes in.
If I'm going to the shop, I've already formulated the sentences I need like, “I'd like a coffee and orange juice please,” but then they'll say something I wasn’t expecting like, “Would you like sugar in the orange juice?” and I'm like, “Huh? What??”
What I need at this point is a one-on-one tutorial on top of what I'm already doing. I need that person to sit down with me for like an hour and just practice having a conversation.
ĀE!/YES!
It can't be my partner, cos no, that doesn't work. It can't be your partner.
From the look in his eyes and fact he said it twice, I can tell Hēmi is speaking from experience.
I’m both disappointed and somewhat relieved finding my own Scotty Morrison is not necessary for the fluency journey.
It can’t be your kids, it has to be someone external. It could maybe be a friend, but there has to be a proper agreement. And hey, I'm gonna pay this person because it's their time and they’re helping me.
So I've pursued this already and signed up for two hours each week because I got to last week and I was feeling all disappointed in myself. I felt like I'm just not getting it. It's all really hard. It's only been three weeks but I was going through that phase we all go through. One week's all good, the next week everything's crap.
In class the teacher is trying to deal with all ten of us and I just felt like I really need that one-on-one time.
I know that phase. I did not know language masters do too.
I’m starting to understand more about Hēmi—how determined he is, and perhaps how hard he is on himself.
Fabio and Hēmi
Hēmi, many of us struggle to actually reach our fluency goals. What do you think is the biggest factor holding us back?
I think maybe it’s lacking that practical need to understand.
Lots of people really want to become fluent or conversational but they may not be in a position with their whānau, or friends, or job, where they NEED the language, so it then just becomes a little bit unreachable.
You need to have it around. You need to be exposed to it in many forms.
I mean, you CAN progress without that—there are lots of examples of people who have done it, but it's slow-going and it can be really lonely.
Having exposure to a language in many forms; through media, through people, it just makes it a whole lot easier to achieve our goals.
This is an interesting point.
I’ve talked to so many people, Māori and non Māori, who feel a deep set internal need to learn te reo Māori. For themselves and their whānau, it’s literally one of the most important things in their lives. It’s the same for me. And yet, we still struggle to make the decisions we need to truly prioritise it. Hēmi is right (anō). We need to create an external need as well.
OK, last pātai! For those of us who are about to start or return to our reo Māori classes and are feeling a bit nervous, do you have any advice for getting through first-class jitters? The ‘stand up and introduce yourself to a bunch of people who might (but probably don’t, but might) think we’re stupido’ moments?
Yeah, I think we can prepare for some of those things we know are coming.
Just like me having to prepare for the supermarket, we can memorise phrases so it’s easier to rattle them off.
Revise all the meeting and greeting things, practise ‘kia ora’ if that’s where you’re at. You can never do enough revision. Just prepare and back yourself.
That’s simple and makes so much sense practically. What about dealing with all the feelings though? Do you think at a certain point, we just need to kind of push through?
Yeah, I don't know. I was thinking about the feelings we get, about the anxiety, I don’t know…
Maybe we do just have to push through because, you know, going to kura reo for the first time, I remember feeling completely out of my comfort zone. I didn't know anyone. Driving there, parking up, stepping out of the car, going to the pōwhiri—that was all really, really hard, but I had to do it and I got through it and I met some really cool people I'm still friends with today.
Being here, when I know I have to go and talk to the cashier at the supermarket—it seems so small, right? But it’s hard. I rely on Fabio a lot but I can't do that all the time anymore. In the end I just have to tell myself, ‘I need to go get some food. I've got to do this, I just have to get over it’.
And I've had some really cool experiences from doing that!
Some, not so cool… I think some people don't know you're learning and might just think you’re being rude, but others can see you don't speak the language and have been really helpful.
It's those really cool experiences—which happen more than the bad ones—that I walk away from being like, ‘I did it!’ and I feel really good and like I can really do this.
Yeah, it’s pushing through that leads you to those moments. We just don’t get them if we don’t push.
To be entirely honest, I’d almost hoped I was going to find something in this interview that made Hēmi so different to the rest of us, it let me off the hook a bit; a crazy IQ, a schedule that involved getting up at 3am every morning to study, a partner who coached him every single second of every day—SOMETHING that I could shrug my shoulders at and say, well that’s the reason he’s able to do it while the rest of us struggle.
Āe, he is (much) better at learning languages.
Āe, he is studying harder than I ever have or probably will do.
But he struggles too, and his stories are so darn relatable, his advice so darn doable, I’m left with a very clear message that if I knuckle down, there’s nothing stopping me or you from reaching our fluency goals.
We’ve got no excuses now e hoa. See ya at the next kura reo then? Maybe we could park next to each other.
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